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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Why abolish software patents"

(All patents vs software patents: :Yes. I think it's worth dividing up the list, in two parts, or in many parts, but in a permissive way, avoiding anything that could be seen as criticising. I'l)
(Burden of proof)
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::Thanks for your response. Of course you are right that it wouldn't do to appear to be merely ranting, and for a 'general' audience one certainly ought to elaborate the case before describing it as a history of insidious economic quackery. But that is exactly what it is and it is not difficult to show that it is: the parallels between recent patent system policy and practise (and arguments in defense thereof) and quackery are striking and strong.
 
::Thanks for your response. Of course you are right that it wouldn't do to appear to be merely ranting, and for a 'general' audience one certainly ought to elaborate the case before describing it as a history of insidious economic quackery. But that is exactly what it is and it is not difficult to show that it is: the parallels between recent patent system policy and practise (and arguments in defense thereof) and quackery are striking and strong.
 
::Unfortunately, replacing “properly” with “morally” does indeed achieve what I'm complaining about ;-) - there are those who take a predominantly moral stance and those who take a predominantly materialist or pragmatic stance and emphasising one viewpoint at the expense of the other when an argument applies to both is shooting oneself in the foot IMO.
 
::Unfortunately, replacing “properly” with “morally” does indeed achieve what I'm complaining about ;-) - there are those who take a predominantly moral stance and those who take a predominantly materialist or pragmatic stance and emphasising one viewpoint at the expense of the other when an argument applies to both is shooting oneself in the foot IMO.
::Your example seriously undermines the argument I have put forward. It is exactly the kind of question that should be avoided precisely because it cannot be answered effectively - at least not on its own terms. It is anecdotal in nature and both sides have a supply of anecdotes, but only one side's arguments have strong support beyond the anecdotal (ours). Would the EPO et al have wilfully ignored the economics and even deliberately distorted the economic analysis they commissioned etc. if they'd thought they could win the argument on rational grounds? Of course not and that is why they have always resorted to fallacy (shifting the burden of proof, anecdata etc.) and evasion and worse. I'm not going to edit/revert anything - I want to know what others think.
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::Your example seriously undermines the argument I have put forward. It is exactly the kind of question that should be avoided precisely because it cannot be answered effectively - at least not on its own terms. It is anecdotal in nature and both sides have a supply of anecdotes, but only one side's arguments have strong support beyond the anecdotal (ours). Would the EPO et al wilfully have ignored the economics and even deliberately distorted the economic analysis they commissioned etc. if they'd thought they could win the argument on rational grounds? Of course not and that is why they have always resorted to fallacy (shifting the burden of proof, anecdata etc.) and evasion and worse. I'm not going to edit/revert anything - I want to know what others think.
  
 
==All patents vs software patents==
 
==All patents vs software patents==

Revision as of 06:08, 15 August 2009

Patent thickets

What about the fact that nobody will be able to develop software, if they got a patent to "protect" their idea, at all because of the thousands of patents owned by large companies (such as IBM or Microsoft) which used in that software if they tried to deny them?--94.98.37.115 04:43, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Yup, sounds worth adding. Ciaran 08:40, 5 August 2009 (EDT)

Burden of proof

I see my addition to the list has been edited. The excision of the majority of the harsh but entirely fair¹ and accurate contextual latter half of the first sentence rather guts it IMO. Okay - it's your list - but “historical status quo” is poor English. Similarly, the “properly” in the second sentence has been replaced with “morally”, reducing the strength of what was the moral *and* material anti-fallacy² core of the argument by half (at least). The added “For example...” question is almost a good _counterexample_ of the kind of question that the argument preceding it suggests should be asked. It positively invites an anecdote fight!

  • ¹ Generously so given what the Pat. Est. has been getting up to since before the CII Directive.
  • ² Shifting the burden of proof has been a (if not the) major achievement of the pro-swpatters.

(above comment unsigned)

Well, I edited it but I am not any official part of ESP Wiki, so blame me not them. Here is your original version:
* Arguments /against/ software patents really shouldn't even be necessary and the anti-software patent side should not allow itself to be forced into a defensive position simply because an insidious economic quackery has dominated patent system policy and practise historically. The burden of proof properly rests entirely upon the shoulders of software patent defenders and advocates: the only acceptable justification for the (often appalling) negative ethical and economic consequences of patent eligibility for software would be evidence demonstrating that it substantially increases technological progress and economic and social welfare despite the harm it does.
And here is mine:
* Arguments /against/ software patents really shouldn't even be necessary and the anti-software patent side should not allow itself to be forced into a defensive position simply because of the historical status quo. The burden of proof morally rests upon the shoulders of software patent defenders and advocates. The only acceptable justification for the negative ethical and economic consequences of patent eligibility for software would be hard evidence demonstrating that it substantially increases technological progress and economic and social welfare despite the harm it does. For example, given equal starting points, does an author who fails to patent their software suffer economic hardship, while an author who does patent their software fares better?
I tried to tone down the most colorful language because the appearance of ranting tends to be counter-productive, no matter how true and deep the underlying situation may be. Also, I try not to use many words where one will do. I changed "properly" with "morally" basically to achieve what you complain about - I do not think that material considerations mean a darn thing without the morality to back them up, i.e. it is the morality that makes material aspects matter here. As for my example, well if this cannot be answered effectively then what are we all doing here?. Having said all that, I won't stand in your way if you edit/revert as you see fit - I'll let the site admins do that ;-/ steelpillow 10:51, 7 August 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for your response. Of course you are right that it wouldn't do to appear to be merely ranting, and for a 'general' audience one certainly ought to elaborate the case before describing it as a history of insidious economic quackery. But that is exactly what it is and it is not difficult to show that it is: the parallels between recent patent system policy and practise (and arguments in defense thereof) and quackery are striking and strong.
Unfortunately, replacing “properly” with “morally” does indeed achieve what I'm complaining about ;-) - there are those who take a predominantly moral stance and those who take a predominantly materialist or pragmatic stance and emphasising one viewpoint at the expense of the other when an argument applies to both is shooting oneself in the foot IMO.
Your example seriously undermines the argument I have put forward. It is exactly the kind of question that should be avoided precisely because it cannot be answered effectively - at least not on its own terms. It is anecdotal in nature and both sides have a supply of anecdotes, but only one side's arguments have strong support beyond the anecdotal (ours). Would the EPO et al wilfully have ignored the economics and even deliberately distorted the economic analysis they commissioned etc. if they'd thought they could win the argument on rational grounds? Of course not and that is why they have always resorted to fallacy (shifting the burden of proof, anecdata etc.) and evasion and worse. I'm not going to edit/revert anything - I want to know what others think.

All patents vs software patents

Some of the arguments listed apply to all patents (e.g. the cost to SMEs), while others apply only to software (e.g. software is maths). Worth dividing the list into two parts? steelpillow 04:29, 9 August 2009 (EDT)

Yes. I think it's worth dividing up the list, in two parts, or in many parts, but in a permissive way, avoiding anything that could be seen as criticising. I'll reply also on Talk:Discuss this wiki#en.swpat.org_policy. Ciaran 17:56, 9 August 2009 (EDT)